Curse

brechin · Mar 25, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Where Do You Get This Skill?

Nero · Mar 25, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

right outside of Camp Rankor in Talus Chute.

sedgewick · Apr 01, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by m30wc0w

I wouldn't use it with Flurry. Mesmer armour is not the strongest. A R/Memakes you look like a Crippler, Trapper, or Degenerator but when they see you meeleeing them they get scared lolz

'

I think you're thinking of "Frenzy", that makes you take 2x dmg.

Flurry just drops your dmg output by 25%, but Frenzy gives you the max +33% AtkSpd, while Flurry only increases AtkSpd by 25%.

edit: Why does it say my status is Banned? Did I say something wrong?...

Mister Muhkuh · Apr 02, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

nothing wrong, its one of the 1st april jokes

btt:

i love this skill

with rogues armor u dont have to fear melee and flurry and cyclone axe for example make pretty much damage in pve(havent tried in pvp yet)

Savio · Apr 02, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedgewick

Flurry just drops your dmg output by 25%, but Frenzy gives you the max +33% AtkSpd, while Flurry only increases AtkSpd by 25%.

No, Flurry and Frenzy both increase attack speed by 33%. However, Flurry decreases the damage you do with your weapon by 25%, while Frenzy causes you to take double damage. The thing about Flurry is that it doesn't affect IW's damage.

Agild Greenfinger · May 01, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

what is the base attack speed with IW? the same as the weapon equipped or does it count as a specific weapon type?

Evilsod · May 01, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

No, Flurry and Frenzy both increase attack speed by 33%. However, Flurry decreases the damage you do with your weapon by 25%, while Frenzy causes you to take double damage. The thing about Flurry is that it doesn't affect IW's damage.

The only problem is Flurry lasts 5 seconds Frenzy lasts 8 seconds, anyone have any idea why?

lagrand1 · Jun 21, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Whew, I was worried after 2 months, people forgot about this thread...
How would it work with the increased speed of daggers?

LightningHell · Jun 21, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Daggers have 1.33s attack speed, 2% doublestriking, if I'm not incorrect.

Wrath Of Dragons · Jun 21, 2006, 06:26 AM // 06:26

daggers are same as swords and axes i believe
there is an extra (2%??) chance of doublestrike per point in dagger mastery

arredondo · Jun 21, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by wongerhere

Hex Breaker only works for 1 (ONE) hex, then POOF, it's gone. wait 15 sec before casting again. im sure you can think of something that can cast a hex in less than 15 sec. let alone 5 things.

Hex Breaker works for two hexes easily. Put it on well before heading into action, then you are protected for one Hex and if it is stripped you can immediately put it back up to instantly stop a second Hex. Only then do you wait 15s to stop a third Hex (better still, run away from cast range as soon as the first one is used).

Daggers do have a base 2% chance of double striking with no points in DM it seems, but it's not worth going Me/As unless you add more points to this attribute. Here's a totally fun and IW build I made that exploits the Assassin's Dual Attacks for spike damage:

==========================================
IW Dual Attacker (Me/As)

Illusion: 14
Deadly Arts: 10
Dagger Mastery: 10
Domination: 6
Fast Cast: 2
(1 left over)

Illusionary Weapon: 38 damage per swing

Dancing Daggers: 3x16 earth damage skill Lead attack, half spell range
Mantis Touch: Crippling Off-hand spell for 15s
Exhausting Assault: interrupting Dual attack that causes exhaustion vs. spells
Horns of the Ox: Dual attack that KDs enemies if they are alone for 25 damage

Rez -or- Hex Breaker: 45s for a single Hex stop, 29 damage
Distortion: 75% evade chance for -1E per whiff
Sympathetic Visage : For 20s drain all adrenaline and -3E AoE if you are struck.

Enchanter's armor for max mana. For gear I bring a Staff with +20% chance of fast Illusion recharge/cast with +30 HP mod and +20% enchant extension mod - this is for when I turn on IW/SV.

The second slot is a +5E Daggers of Defense (+5AL) - I use these for IW.
==========================================

Yes, a Dual Attack double whiff does IW damage! But ONLY if you proceed it with a successful Off-Hand attack. My choices, Dancing Daggers and Mantis Touch, are a Lead and Off-hand that snare and require no weapon contact to work. The DM stats give me a 20% chance of double striking with normal melee swings, increasing DPS over the normal 38 per 1.33s.

If you do it this way, then all Dual Attacks on your bar are turned 'on' and even when you whiff one of them as IW hits twice, the others stay active for a long time for more IW damage. You can add as many Dual Attacks as you wish for instant 76 HP spikes everytime (my first greedy attempt had four Duals, lol), but of course you need defense as well, particularly in Arenas. Enjoy!

tuperwho · Jun 22, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

I like the creativity, arredondo, but I'm still a bit skeptical. I did a small comparison of part of your build to my standard Me/W IW. As you have it, in the 13.3 seconds it takes for 10 attacks, you will actually attack 12 times (dual attacks) without skill use. This would mean 456 damage in 13.3 sec. However, with 16 in illusion and flurry, you would attack ~15 times. 15*42 (or higher if you have the rockmoulder's boost) is 630 damage.

Now, I have yet to try the me/a build with dual attack skill use, but I'm doubtfull that it can beat this. It seems like it would drain energy and waste time in battle, and it also prevents the use of an offhand for defense, casting speed, recharge, lengthening enchantments, etc. Furthermore, if you insist on casting and using energy, I think you could still do better with clumsiness, phantom pain, and the like from an illusion line with 16 att. levels.

So, I don't mean to discourage, and I would love to be proven wrong, but I will need to see a much more detailed study involving precise numbers before I can believe that this is better than my normal build.

arredondo · Jun 22, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

^^^ I'm not sure what you're saying exactly... you realize that Dual Attacks is equal to two IW swings each skill use, right? And have we confirmed if the skill attacks are 1s apart or 1.33s apart? Just trying to understand what you're describing. Either way, you need to check it out since it looks too cool.

tuperwho · Jun 22, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Sorry, I'll try again.

I do understand how dual attacks work. And I am comparing a Me/W using sword/axe to a Me/A with daggers. I'm using 1.33 sec. as the base weapon attack speed of all of these weapons. Further, I was trying to compare a Me/A IW build with Me/W. It is clear that without using any dual attack skills, the Me/W will do much more IW damage, due to the use of flurry. In 13.3 sec's, your Me/A with it's passive dual attacks would trigger IW 12 times on average, for 38 damage each. However, a Me/W with flurry (or at least the way I run it) would trigger flurry 15 times for 42 (or 44 if you use the rockmoulder offhand) damage each.

I'm then asking you to provide more evidence of your skillbar (especially exhausting assault and horns of the ox) in action. I see the following drawbacks:
*it takes extra casting time and energy to activate and use these skills, slowing your IW hits
*you cannot use an offhand with daggers. Using a sword or axe allows a shield for defense and damage reduction, or an offhand for more energy, faster skill recharge, faster skill casting, etc.

And finally, if you do indeed prove that using the passive and skill based dual attacks does raise the Me/A IW damage over the 16*42=630 I referenced earlier, can you prove that it is higher than combining other skills used in a Me/W build (especially clumsiness, conjure phantasm, and phantom pain).

Basically, I'm a big fan of IW, and am very excited to get the most out of it. However, I think that Me/A as you present it is not actually an improvement from the damage I was able to do with my build from prophecies.

arredondo · Jun 22, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Well it's tough to compare a full build to a bare concept, because some of the nice things about this setup is that you can do things not possible with a IW+Flurry build.

For instance, defensively I can go in with Hex Breaker on to stop two Hex casts, and when under melee attack I can switch to Distortion to minimize damage, frustrate chain Assassin combos, or dodge arrow interrupts. I can IW spam all day doing this whereas with Flurry you interrupt your IAS stance.

Also, my Lead/Off-Hand combo gives nice damage to 60AL foes and snares. Snares are possible but a little more unweildy with Me/Wa IW (high cost, longer recharge). I can keep the Cripple on a foe all match if I want due to the recharge rate and low mana cost. It's a nice bonus of the build.

The extra IW damage comes with the +20% chance of double striking. Out of ten normal attacks, you average twelve IW swings this way. That's a total average of 36 DPS for the 1.33s swings. Assuming skill attack swings are 1s apart (again, I'm not sure), each Dual Attack gives spike 76 DPS alone. The best recharging Dual Attacks for 5E are Exhaustive Assault, Death Blossom and Horns of the Ox, but here I only use two to make room for defense. If you used all three, that's 228 damage in 3s, plus 10s of normal IW spam is another 266 damage for about 500 damage in 13s. You can add the 48 damage of DD too if you want.

You have good defense, a snare, and stylish IW damage on top of it (I'm fine with the fast recharge of only two Duals). It may not replace the tried and true IW build, but it works very well regardless.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 22, 2006, 11:30 AM // 11:30

The Me/A can do far more damage in the same peroid of time as the Me/W. However, in comparison of solo, the Me/W would be far better off in killing others.

Basically, it was the same thing people discussed a while back on "Warrior vs Assassin".

The Me/A is alot more fragile, trading in the higher ability to get a kill in before target is healed up.

While all these... IW remain a gimmick

Blkout · Jun 24, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

The Me/A can do far more damage in the same peroid of time as the Me/W. However, in comparison of solo, the Me/W would be far better off in killing others.

Basically, it was the same thing people discussed a while back on "Warrior vs Assassin".

The Me/A is alot more fragile, trading in the higher ability to get a kill in before target is healed up.

While all these... IW remain a gimmick

IW is no gimmick. It has it's place. I've found it to be VERY effective in my W/Me build. The beauty of the build I'm running is that I don't depend on IW for only means of damage like an IW Me/W. I use my axe to do the damage to casters first, then after they have been elimintated, I switch to IW to kill off the high armor warriors and rangers. What's nice about the build is that if by some chance, IW gets stripped, I can still fall back on my axe and 12 in axe mastery to still do major damage. And since I'm running a W/Me setup, I have the all the benefits of much higher armor.

Sab · Jun 24, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blkout

IW is no gimmick. It has it's place. I've found it to be VERY effective in my W/Me build. The beauty of the build I'm running is that I don't depend on IW for only means of damage like an IW Me/W. I use my axe to do the damage to casters first, then after they have been elimintated, I switch to IW to kill off the high armor warriors and rangers. What's nice about the build is that if by some chance, IW gets stripped, I can still fall back on my axe and 12 in axe mastery to still do major damage. And since I'm running a W/Me setup, I have the all the benefits of much higher armor.

If you're running Warrior primary, why use IW instead of your weapon? The only real advantage of W/Me over Me/W is higher armor, which Me/W can imitate with Distortion, Shields Up and the like. In other respects, Me/W is certainly better - IW will do more damage, you can maintain a constant IAS (Flurry), you have the option to use energy-intensive skills, etc.

Using IW as a W/Me just seems gimped, you're not quite an Axe warrior as you arguably *need* Eviscerate as your elite, nor are you a fully fledged IW, doing less than maximum damage without constant IAS and 16 specced in Illusion.

Blkout · Jun 24, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuxA

If you're running Warrior primary, why use IW instead of your weapon? The only real advantage of W/Me over Me/W is higher armor, which Me/W can imitate with Distortion, Shields Up and the like. In other respects, Me/W is certainly better - IW will do more damage, you can maintain a constant IAS (Flurry), you have the option to use energy-intensive skills, etc.

Using IW as a W/Me just seems gimped, you're not quite an Axe warrior as you arguably *need* Eviscerate as your elite, nor are you a fully fledged IW, doing less than maximum damage without constant IAS and 16 specced in Illusion.

I have a run a full axe warrior build and in PvE this build is simply better. If you're speaking of PvP, that may be a different story. Eviscerate is very nice and in my full axe build, I used it for months, but the truth is, against high armor targets like warriors and rangers, IW does more damage. And couple that to the fact that I can still do the same amount of damage when blind or when warriors or rangers are using evasive stances and the advantages become VERY clear.

I don't want this to sound rude, but don't knock the build until you try it, I think you would be VERY surprised if you play it in the fashion I listed above. Take casters out first, especially the mesmers and necros since those are most likely to strip IW, after that you can run IW almost infintitely. And I got news for you, even with only 12 points in IW, it does 34 armor ignoring damage which is more than an axe warrior will do with 16 in axe mastery against a high armor target, and again, I can do this with weakness and blind on me, as well as sitting in the middle of a ward against melee. Try that with a standard axe/sword build.

Everyone tries to act like an expert here, and no one actually tries the builds that people post, before someone chimes in and tries to break it down to act like they know more than the person who posted the build. Every build has SOME weakness somewhere, you can't perfect it all. You simply try to minimize your weaknesses.

And for the record, an Me/W will NEVER have the defense of a W/Me even if you use Distortion and Shields Up. You seem to forget that the warrior armor alone is a HUGE defensive upgrade, and I can use Watch Yourself, Dolyak Signet, or any other armor buff I want which only makes me even tougher. Why do you think Me/W's are such a joke to hardcore players, because they are easy to kill because of the low defense and because without IW, they lost their main attack. My Me/W build doesn't suffer from those problems. In fact, I see a Me/W as "gimped", you're not really a warrior because you can't tank and you're not really a mesmer because you aren't using domination for interrupts.

Sab · Jun 25, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blkout

I have a run a full axe warrior build and in PvE this build is simply better. If you're speaking of PvP, that may be a different story. Eviscerate is very nice and in my full axe build, I used it for months, but the truth is, against high armor targets like warriors and rangers, IW does more damage. And couple that to the fact that I can still do the same amount of damage when blind or when warriors or rangers are using evasive stances and the advantages become VERY clear.

I don't want this to sound rude, but don't knock the build until you try it, I think you would be VERY surprised if you play it in the fashion I listed above. Take casters out first, especially the mesmers and necros since those are most likely to strip IW, after that you can run IW almost infintitely. And I got news for you, even with only 12 points in IW, it does 34 armor ignoring damage which is more than an axe warrior will do with 16 in axe mastery against a high armor target, and again, I can do this with weakness and blind on me, as well as sitting in the middle of a ward against melee. Try that with a standard axe/sword build.

Everyone tries to act like an expert here, and no one actually tries the builds that people post, before someone chimes in and tries to break it down to act like they know more than the person who posted the build. Every build has SOME weakness somewhere, you can't perfect it all. You simply try to minimize your weaknesses.

And for the record, an Me/W will NEVER have the defense of a W/Me even if you use Distortion and Shields Up. You seem to forget that the warrior armor alone is a HUGE defensive upgrade, and I can use Watch Yourself, Dolyak Signet, or any other armor buff I want which only makes me even tougher. Why do you think Me/W's are such a joke to hardcore players, because they are easy to kill because of the low defense and because without IW, they lost their main attack. My Me/W build doesn't suffer from those problems. In fact, I see a Me/W as "gimped", you're not really a warrior because you can't tank and you're not really a mesmer because you aren't using domination for interrupts.

I fully understand that IW is constant armor ignoring damage, unaffected by Blind, Weakness, Evasion stances etc., indeed those are the strengths of IW over traditional attacks. I'm simply arguing that, for IW, Me/W > W/Me.

As a Me/W, your job is similar to an Assassin's - that is to get in, deal damage and get out, leaving tanking to the Warrior. Ideally, all the aggro should be on the tank, but accidents happen, so Distortion provide a means of escaping should some aggro leak onto you (rather than a substitute for more armor). Of course a higher AL would be nice, but in a situation where you won't be taking much damage in the first place (the aggro's on the tank), additional damage from 16 in Illusion and constant IAS would be more beneficial.

And for the record, hardcore players consider IW itself to be a joke, regardless of whatever profession uses it. You'll never see IW used in any sort of organized team play, for example.